Curse

lilondra · Oct 26, 2009, 06:33 AM // 06:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

/not signed X infinity

If EDA was truly OPed every team in HA/GVG would be running it. They aren't. The only reason EDA seems OPed is because the CA itself is imba. Limiting skills will always mean that there's something that lacks a good counter or just seems that it can't be stopped.

Trying to balance a skill around a limited format would be like saying you should balance skills around how OPed they are in pre-sear. Saying something is imba while not having access to the full set of counter builds and alternatives is not something the game should be considering.

While I'm not totally against changing EDA (or any other skill), I AM totally against balancing for CA reasons. Cause after EDA, they'll be other skills that suddenly become OP in the format. Will they then need to be 'fixed'? Potentially damaging the game, both pvp and pve, for the sake of a 4 man limited skills format is not something I want to see. And I certainly hope its not something the rest of the GW player base would want to see.

Balancing skill for a 4 man format is hard enough (especially when the rest of the game runs for 8), but balancing when you DON'T know what else will be available is close to impossible. You'll just have to grit your teeth and bear it for a day. Thats the price of the format. Or try to increase the number of skills available for each day in the hopes that you can get a counter.

If you truly want to go changing skills for CA, why not petition for a pve,pvp,CA split. That way you can do whatever the hell you want to skills in CA and it won't affect the rest of the game.

Fix the format, not the skills.

The whole point of CE was because they refused to balance their own skills so they came up with CE.Trying to force a constantly changing meta.I was suprised to see there insantly was a meta of PS EDA Paragon and monk although this is quite obvious the best combination it was just sad to people running that instantly.CE has many flaws yes but if EDA is imba by design in 4vs4 arenas and useless in 8vs8 arenas then *why* not nerf it ? Yes new imba skills will pop up but tbh thats obviousbecause last time I checked THERE ARE TO MANY IMBA SKILLS TO FIX AT ONCE.

Revelations · Oct 26, 2009, 07:15 AM // 07:15

Yay! EDA is here for a third time in a row to shit up the meta again! Along with it's freebie cover enchant, of course.

DreamWind · Oct 26, 2009, 07:45 AM // 07:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revelations

Yay! EDA is here for a third time in a row to shit up the meta again! Along with it's freebie cover enchant, of course.

ROFL. That is utterly hilarious. I'll say here what I said in the other thread on this topic...this is the first (of probably many) instances where Anet is going to have to balance around Codex arena.

You can bet your ass they didn't think they would have to balance this format...if anything half the reason they implemented it is because they thought it would have no upkeep. So now that it is blatantly obvious that it needs balance, I will sit back with a bag of popcorn and watch the glorious thing that is Anet balance.

Tenebrae · Oct 26, 2009, 10:35 AM // 10:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

So now that it is blatantly obvious that it needs balance, I will sit back with a bag of popcorn and watch the glorious thing that is Anet balance.

Hhaha , that was a good one . For the rest , agree with Ketsu on #36 .

Beren985 · Oct 26, 2009, 10:58 AM // 10:58

The problem is not only that EDA is overpowered for 4vs4 combat, but also that there are only 15 elites for Derv, meaning that as we have 5 elites a day, EDA will be showing up 1/3 of the time.

I think that the elite could use some nerf, but I think it is more important to reduce the number of Derv/Para elites in the daily rotation to 2/15, in order to keep the proportion similar to the 5/35 of the core classes. Following the same rule, Asa and Ritu elites should be reduced to 4. This changes would shrink the versatility of the non-core classes in Codex, but this would only reflect that they already have a much narrower pool of skills in the game.

Greedy Gus · Oct 26, 2009, 01:29 PM // 13:29

Yeah, this one is easy.

-EDA has been a good nerf candidate in a 4v4 environment for a long time.
-No one uses EDA anywhere else and won't care.
-Derv/Para elite skills get selected far more often in CB.
-Defensive skills that are overpowered are much more degenerate than offensive ones, leading to drawn out matches or total whack-a-mole gameplay.
-PvP version changed to working only on scythe attacks or melee attacks is such an easy change.

kazjun · Oct 26, 2009, 03:23 PM // 15:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by lilondra

The whole point of CE was because they refused to balance their own skills so they came up with CE.Trying to force a constantly changing meta.I was suprised to see there insantly was a meta of PS EDA Paragon and monk although this is quite obvious the best combination it was just sad to people running that instantly.CE has many flaws yes but if EDA is imba by design in 4vs4 arenas and useless in 8vs8 arenas then *why* not nerf it ? Yes new imba skills will pop up but tbh thats obviousbecause last time I checked THERE ARE TO MANY IMBA SKILLS TO FIX AT ONCE.

There's no issue of nerfing EDA if it's imba in relation to the rest of the game. The issue is nerfing it because of CA. Skills effect the whole game, and they aren't set for 4 man teams with limited skills. Suppose you do smiters boon EDA. Fine. What then when the next skill that is imba for 4v4 comes up (and it will)? What happens when, due to the limited skills you get access to, something comes up that overpowers everything else for the day. Do you nerf that too?

How long do you keep nerfing skills till you hit something that IS used throughout pvp or pve? And all for the sake of a single arena format? Do what you want to CA, but any changes should only effect CA. The rest of the game should NOT be balanced to what some so called 'random' selection of skills can do in a 4 man situation. Or are you saying that all other game formats should comply to CA regulations? That if I wanted to gvg, my skills should be based on whats 'balanced' for TA lite? That if I were doing missions in pve, that my skill sets are for 4v4, when pve is 8v300?

Again, don't care about EDA. But I DO care when you start changing skills for the sake of a limited 4 man format. Balance skills for full unlimited skills 8v8. Not for its gimped cousin.

AlsPals · Oct 26, 2009, 03:32 PM // 15:32

If anything, give CA its own skills. EDA is FAR from op, thanks to OP skills like Rend Enchantments that mean it cant be used anywhere but such a place where you are forced to limits. I totally disagree with nerfing it in any other format...it has uses that only became glaring in a new, slip-shod format.

Sieg Sunblade · Oct 26, 2009, 03:44 PM // 15:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlsPals

If anything, give CA its own skills. EDA is FAR from op, thanks to OP skills like Rend Enchantments that mean it cant be used anywhere but such a place where you are forced to limits. I totally disagree with nerfing it in any other format...it has uses that only became glaring in a new, slip-shod format.

Rend enchantments is easier to shutdown than EDA. Just a quick FYI.

The reason that EDA is not OP'd in 4v4 is not due to rend enchantments (although that is part of it to be sure), it's due to the one-dimensional aspect of the bar and the fact that there are more targets to blind and you have greater access to skills to keep your team clean.

This is not the case in 4v4. It doesn't matter that EDA is quite one-dimensional, because that one dimension shuts down THE GREATEST SOURCE OF DAMAGE IN THE GAME. Moreover, it is incredibly difficult to fit enough things to deal with it on your bar without gimping yourself vs anything else.

EDA was fine when Rend was 1s cast, rip was 10r, and FF was 2s. Now to even hope to 'counter' it you need to devote an elite slot and often another skill.

lilondra · Oct 26, 2009, 05:50 PM // 17:50

TBH I'm not talking about nuking EDA I'm talking about nerfing or revamping.Nuking is kinda a last resort.And TBH The question is does the skill produce anything good ? And at this point alot of skills should be nerfed and perhaps even nuked if no propper function can be found.EDA,Bsurge to start with meleehate.VoR,empathy,backfire because of easy shutdown and so on but this is kinda getting off topic so yh EDA should be nerfed because of CA since its only imba in CA and bad/unused in other arenas so in reality it doesn't affect those other arenas.

kazjun · Oct 28, 2009, 01:31 AM // 01:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by lilondra

TBH I'm not talking about nuking EDA I'm talking about nerfing or revamping.Nuking is kinda a last resort.And TBH The question is does the skill produce anything good ? And at this point alot of skills should be nerfed and perhaps even nuked if no propper function can be found.EDA,Bsurge to start with meleehate.VoR,empathy,backfire because of easy shutdown and so on but this is kinda getting off topic so yh EDA should be nerfed because of CA since its only imba in CA and bad/unused in other arenas so in reality it doesn't affect those other arenas.

And this is the main problem I have with nerfing for the sake of CA. It's never going to be just EDA. Because of the format, there's always going to be something that is imba due to the small party size and limited skills limiting counters.

Skills like EDA, BSurge, VoR, empathy and backfire are not OPed anywhere in the game other than CA. And these skills are used elsewhere other than CA as well. Empathy and backfire are probably as close to being staple mesmer skills in HM pve as you can get. Why don't you try going to the mesmer forums and suggesting that empathy and backfire are OPed and should be nerfed? Or even better, that they should be nerfed cause they are OPed in CA.

Skills should be balanced with regards to the majority of the game. And that is 8v8 or 8v300. Not 4v4, which is the smallest fraction of the game. And balanced with regards to you having full access to skills, not being limited to a handful of skills per day. CA, just cause of its format, will always have some skills that are far superior, and some skills as totally useless. You could get ToF with no source of burning, or dark bond/infuse conditions without minions for example. Though you could use them as cover enchants, to trigger echos, they aren't anywhere near their full use. That is just the price of the format.

You should not risk damaging the rest of the game by messing with skills just to fit a gimmick format. Balance a skill because its imba with regards to the full 8v8 game. Not cause its imba due to the format of CA.

Reverend Dr · Oct 28, 2009, 05:10 AM // 05:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beren985

The problem is not only that EDA is overpowered for 4vs4 combat, but also that there are only 15 elites for Derv, meaning that as we have 5 elites a day, EDA will be showing up 1/3 of the time.

And the fact that two of the other elites are wounding strike and reapers means a derv is going to be in the party almost every day.

lutz · Oct 28, 2009, 06:41 AM // 06:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

Skills like EDA, BSurge, VoR, empathy and backfire are not OPed anywhere in the game other than CA.

Wait, ...what?

Elephantaliste · Oct 28, 2009, 10:00 AM // 10:00

So what, people want to fix Codex Meta already ?

Probably same people that said meta will shift everyday and that, that will ensure whatever they call balancing...

zhongzh · Oct 28, 2009, 11:28 AM // 11:28

I think the problem is more to do with the CA mechanics than skill balance. The original sealed deck format separated skills into 3 tiers: elites, 'good' skills and crappy skills. If they modify this system so that the OP skills, mediocre and bad skills are separated (regardless of whether they are elite or not), then we could see some more balance rather than pure random selection. Skills could then be easily bumped into different tiers when the meta changes or after skill updates.

Elephantaliste · Oct 28, 2009, 12:52 PM // 12:52

Such kind of classification could be or could have been used for most of areas.

But unless some statistics are used, for such a heavy process I think related workflow need to be outsourced to a Test Crew if ever ANet have time to organize it.

lilondra · Oct 28, 2009, 01:40 PM // 13:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

And this is the main problem I have with nerfing for the sake of CA. It's never going to be just EDA. Because of the format, there's always going to be something that is imba due to the small party size and limited skills limiting counters.

Skills like EDA, BSurge, VoR, empathy and backfire are not OPed anywhere in the game other than CA. And these skills are used elsewhere other than CA as well. Empathy and backfire are probably as close to being staple mesmer skills in HM pve as you can get. Why don't you try going to the mesmer forums and suggesting that empathy and backfire are OPed and should be nerfed? Or even better, that they should be nerfed cause they are OPed in CA.

Skills should be balanced with regards to the majority of the game. And that is 8v8 or 8v300. Not 4v4, which is the smallest fraction of the game. And balanced with regards to you having full access to skills, not being limited to a handful of skills per day. CA, just cause of its format, will always have some skills that are far superior, and some skills as totally useless. You could get ToF with no source of burning, or dark bond/infuse conditions without minions for example. Though you could use them as cover enchants, to trigger echos, they aren't anywhere near their full use. That is just the price of the format.

You should not risk damaging the rest of the game by messing with skills just to fit a gimmick format. Balance a skill because its imba with regards to the full 8v8 game. Not cause its imba due to the format of CA.

EDA was the only skill that didn't cause huge problems in every format.EDA did never produce a balanced and good build so there is no reason to keep it alive in the first place.Blindspam was just made to easy and this needs a revert regardless of format.

Skye Marin · Oct 28, 2009, 09:08 PM // 21:08

EDA isn't overpowered in the traditional sense. It's just not fun to play against, like EoE bombs or old school Spirit Spam.

You could nerf it by:
-Increased recharge time
-Increased casting time
-Only works on melee / scythe attack skills
-all of the above

A change in functionality would be nice too, because the dervish has comparatively few elites. Maybe something like:

While wielding an Earth weapon, your attacks deal +5..20 earth damage and you cause blindness for 0..5 seconds if you strike a foe that is using an attack skill.

FoxBat · Oct 28, 2009, 09:55 PM // 21:55

The nightfall professions are being overplayed and this has nothing to do with EDA. Wounding Strike/Reaper's Sweep are "balanced" for other formats, but dervs are overpowered in CA because they're bound to get one of these three elites almost every day. Paragons have either aggressive refrain, IJAFW, or Stunning Strike showing up about as often, making them everyday staples. The solution isn't to start nerfing derv skills until they have as much completely useless crap as the core profs, it's to adjust how many skills are given to each class daily.

2 out of the 4 EDA days the counters were extremely strong and the skill was not an issue. I don't think a nerf is needed, it just needs to show up less often, along with fewer spear attacks.

Short · Oct 29, 2009, 12:13 PM // 12:13

No. If Codex needs changing in skill fashions it is to change how skills rotate for the extra proffs or less elites for the extra proffs. But remember, Flesh Wound and Assault Enches also come up quite a lot. Use them.